Buddhists

‘Brothers, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

‘Brothers, the eye is burning, visible forms are burning, visual consciousness is burning, visual impression is burning, also whatever sensation, pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, arises on account of the visual impression, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion; I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

‘The ear is burning, sounds are burning, auditory consciousness is burning, auditory impression is burning, also whatever sensation, pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, arises on account of the auditory impression, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust

‘Brothers, a learned and noble disciple, who sees (things) thus, becomes dispassionate with regard to the eye, becomes dispassionate with regard to visible forms, He becomes dispassionate with regard to the ear, with regard to sounds . . . He becomes dispassionate with regard to the nose . . . with regard to odours . . . He becomes dispassionate with regard to the tongue . . . with regard to flavours . . . He becomes dispassionate with regard to the body . . . with regard to tangible things . . . He becomes dispassionate with regard to the mind, becomes dispassionate with regard to mental objects...

‘Being dispassionate, he becomes detached; through detachment he is liberated. When liberated there is knowledge that he is liberated. And he knows: Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived, what has to be done is done, there is no more left to be done on this account.’

This the Blessed One said. The brothers were glad, and they rejoiced at his words.
While this exposition was being delivered, the minds of those thousand brothers were liberated from impurities, without attachment.

bro

Haha, ok kid.

All humans want to be human until they find being human is a flaw, then they do not know what to do for a time.

You're a dumb fuck.

everything is stressful

yet some have it far more stressful than others. some people are hungry. isn't it right then to crave that their stress be reduced and be moved to change the systems that cause them to be hungry, instead of encouraging dissociation from hunger?

letting go of that very craving

which is far easier for someone who already has many of their cravings satisfied by first world comforts

It is generally witnessed within a lifetime to go hungry when one's brothers are the system which fails to see all outcomes. This is human, the level of study we are discussing is not the level of the average Easterner. Systems vary, Monks have little and know the cost of self betterment. They are in reserve for when the country needs them. Much like China builds ghost cities, whilst still trying to enforcce population control, the system is preparing for every eventuality.

The problem of hunger requires trillions of dollars, it is not in reach of a Buddhist temple to acquire that.

I don't even know where to begin with this one.
I think OPs biggest hurdle is just the lack of curiosity in what Buddhism is.
Forget its philosophy, impact, and spiritual components.

Theoretical question.

If one suddenly became master of time, would one go back and change everything to prevent life eating life.. Killing off the first cells that ate each other?

Everything would be gone, and there would be no humans, but it would be right.

We do not betray our species, we accept there are things we must endure.

you missed my point

my point is that "hunger is a craving, and cravings should be transcended" is fundamentally contradictory to "hunger is a matter of material resources and ought be satiated properly by the system"

youtube.com/watch?v=HUngLgGRJpo

The nugget is pleasant sensations.
The nugget is drugs.
The nugget is sex/masturbation.

The nugget is pleasant sights.
The nugget is visual entertainment (movies, tv, porn, games)
The nugget is travel.

The nugget is pleasant sounds
The nugget is music.

The nugget is pleasant aromas.
The nugget is fragrance.

The nugget is pleasant tastes.
The nugget is food.

The nugget is pleasant ideas.
The nugget is fantasy.

The nugget brings much suffering.

Maybe let go of it and see what happens.

The value of sensuality is that it provides you with pleasure from the pain of itself.

Sensuality touches you with pain, but at the same time, it offers you a solution for that same pain. It’s just like racketeering: “Okay, if you pay me, I’ll make your problems go away, problems that I put on you so that you will pay me”. So you get extorted by your own sensuality, your own desires. Sensual desires hurt, and giving in to them will remove that hurt and reward you with more pleasure. It’s a win-win. Or so it seems, until you realize that the true win is to not be pressured by the desires in the first place. The win is not having to pay the racketeering thugs for your safety; the win is to not have the thugs pressure you at all.

The more you give in to the pressure of sensuality, the more you will have to give in since its nature can never be changed.

The Nature of sensuality is that it hurts, burns, and pressures you.

“Suppose, monks, that there were a beverage in a bronze cup—consummate in its color, consummate in its smell, consummate in its flavor, but mixed with poison—and a man were to come along: scorched from the heat, oppressed by heat, exhausted, trembling, & thirsty. They would say to him, ‘Here, my good man, is a beverage for you in a bronze cup: consummate in its color, consummate in its smell, consummate in its flavor, but mixed with poison. Drink it, if you want. Having been drunk, it will please you with its color, smell, & flavor. But having drunk it, you will—from that cause—meet with death or death-like suffering.’ The thought would occur to that man, ‘It’s possible to subdue this thirst of mine with water, with whey, with salted porridge, or with bean-broth. I certainly shouldn’t drink that which would be for my long-term harm & suffering.’ Having reflected on that beverage in the bronze cup, he wouldn’t drink it. He would reject it. And so from that cause he would not meet with death or death-like suffering."

You do not see the benefits of this attempt to master the human form.. It is not for the populous, it is for the monks.

Go fuck yourself tripfag

As a child I ignored you as an adult I point that out.

no, I see the benefits for the individual. you proved my point precisely:

it is for the monks

right, and monks clinging to the idea of their own liberation from craving is in and of itself a craving for the individual's freedom from suffering, which is a clinging to the self

such is not an issue because some day we have no body.

being a little hungry doesn't hurt that bad.... starvation does

if the system were to ensure everyone in the world had a minimum nutritional profile, that would reduce suffering by satisfying those cravings consistently.

Whatever faggot. You're not wise, you're not better than anyone else. You're a retard trying to get attention on an anonymous board with holier-than-thou faggotry. I hate all tripfags, you should all die now.

sure, I'm just pointing out the contradiction and hypocrisy in the here and now

the desire to end desire is the final desire that you let go of

youtube.com/watch?v=12_iuMQrywA
youtube.com/watch?v=Hy-34Sx-N38

Thanks for seeing my logic, I thought it would be denied.

Also, there is a level of paradox in all attempts to contain duality. Where we succeed we also fail, we are aware of this, but it is about fine-tuning to find one's absolute potential centre.

I have an arsenal of responses at my disposal, but you are not ready.

–“Magandiya, suppose that there was a leper covered with sores and infections, picking the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, cauterizing his body over a pit of glowing embers. A doctor cures him and he's now happy and free. Then suppose two strong men were to grab and drag him to a pit of glowing embers. What do you think? Wouldn’t he twist his body this way and that?
–“Yes, Master Gotama. The fire is painful to the touch, very hot & scorching.”
–“Now what do you think, Magandiya? Is the fire painful to the touch, very hot & scorching, only now, or was it also that way before?”
–“Both now & before it is painful to the touch, very hot & scorching, master Gotama. It’s just that when the man was a leper covered with sores and infections, picking the scabs off the openings of his wounds with his nails, his faculties were impaired, which was why, even though the fire was painful to the touch, he had the skewed perception of ‘pleasant’.”
–“In the same way, Magandiya,

sensual pleasures in the past were painful to the touch, very hot & scorching;

sensual pleasures in the future will be painful to the touch, very hot & scorching;

sensual pleasures at present are painful to the touch, very hot & scorching;

but when beings are not free from the passion for sensual pleasures—devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever—their faculties are impaired, which is why, even though sensual pleasures are painful to the touch, they have the skewed perception of ‘pleasant’.”
—MN 75

that makes sense in one sense but is nonsense in another sense

If you no longer desire to end desire, then there's no longer a desire to be a monk

When the Buddha talked about Samsara, he didn't mean a place. Samsara is a process. It's something people do. They go around creating worlds. When one world begins to wear out, you've gotta create another one. When that one wears out, you create another. You keep creating worlds and moving in and then having to move on from them, over and over.

And you bump into other people who are creating their worlds as well. In fact, it turns out that your world has to feed off the worlds of other people. Their worlds have to feed off others' worlds.

Worlds keep caving in on you and killing you. Then you have to go through the process of rebirth all over again by finding a world and giving rise to it through your actions.

The Buddha said the tears you've shed through your many lifetimes are greater than the water in the ocean. The next time you go playing in the water, remind yourself that you're playing in your accumulated tears.

There's the suffering we cause each other because our worlds feed on the worlds of others. There's a lot in this process of world creation that depends on feeding off the worlds of others. Think about your food, your clothing, your shelter, the medicine you need in order to keep yourself fed, clothed, sheltered, healthy. Even basic processes involve a lot of suffering. Our ongoing lives require the support of others. We depend on the suffering of others.

The most responsible thing to do is to learn how to get over this addiction you have for creating worlds. This is why the process of learning how to get out of the cycle of rebirth and redeath is not a selfish one. It's more like overcoming a bad habit - an abusive habit. It's like overcoming an addiction. Once you've learned how to overcome it, you can teach others how you did it so they can do it themselves. When you get the point where you're not creating worlds anymore, then you're lightening their load.

One less world to feed.

this reality we share is inherently paradoxical

attempting to transcend the paradox seems like a form of escape instead of confronting and engaging with the painful reality we face

dhammatalks.org/books/WithEachAndEveryBreath/Section0003.html

Quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. Just as if a dexterous bathman or bathman’s apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder—saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without—would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates… this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. This is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here & now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.

Then, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of concentration. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time & again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate & pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates… this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of concentration. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born of concentration. This, too, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here & now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.

And then, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.’ He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated & pervaded, suffused & filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates… this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. This, too, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here & now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.

And then, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain—as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress—he enters & remains in the fourth jhāna: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. This, too, great king, is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here & now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime.”

i assume by worlds you meant societies and consciousnesses

sure, there's an argument for antinatalism there

I don't really understand how that addresses my point though

sure, feeding someone starving requires the effort of others

but the pain of a farmer growing crops pales in comparison to the pain of a starving person. putting them on equal scales is missing the point

Perhaps, but all potential intellectual fulcrums are navigated by a high IQ race and the people will feed the few who take on the hardship, to see what might be learned.

what basis do you have on which to claim that monasticism attracts higher iq individuals?

also are you implying that buddhism is at its core an epistemological system?

"What is a mirror for?

For reflection.

In the same way:

bodily actions,

verbal actions,

mental actions

are to be done with repeated reflection.

“Whenever you want to do an action, you should reflect on it:
‘This action I want to do—would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both?
Would it be an unskillful action, with painful consequences, painful results?’

If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both;
it would be an unskillful action with painful consequences, painful results,
then any action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do.

But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction,
that it would be a skillful action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results...
then any action of that sort is fit for you to do.

“While you are doing an action, you should reflect on it:
‘This action I am doing—is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both?
Is it an unskillful action, with painful consequences, painful results?’

If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to affliction of others, or both… you should give it up.
But if on reflection you know that it is not… you may continue with it."

dhammatalks.org/books/KarmaQ&A/Section0004.html

Darkside monks have no rapturous pleasure, yet they share a common goal.

As I am told time and again I am not special, I will say, I am unique just like everyone else and that is special enough.

By reducing your own desires, you place less of a burden on others.

the pain needed to grow crops is far less heavy than the pain of a starving person

do you disagree?

dhammatalks.org/books/ParadoxOfBecoming/Section0006.html

this book might give you your answer

Because any desire that produces becoming also produces suffering, the Buddha was faced with a strategic challenge: how to put an end to suffering when the desire to put an end to suffering would lead to renewed suffering. His solution to this problem involved a paradoxical strategy, creating a state of becoming in the mind from which he could watch the potentials of kamma as they come into being, but without fueling the desire to do anything with regard to those potentials at all. In the terms of the field analogy, this solution would deprive the seed of moisture. Eventually, when all other states of becoming had been allowed to pass away, the state of becoming that had acted as the strategic vantage point would have to be deprived of moisture as well. Because the moisture of craving and clinging would have seeped into the seed even of this strategic becoming, this would eventually mean the destruction of the seed, as that moisture and any conditioned aspects of consciousness the seed might contain were allowed to pass away.

interesting

Buddha excises the very potential of emotional content from a threat to the world, that he may see balance without the trap of emotional rebound.

at the core of such a being is the capability to know the truth of himself totally, developing such frees him from prison, and though he feels little, what he does feel is harmony unto himself.

Contentment.

Some class it as cheating, yet they do not understand the journey and the pain involved in being torn apart by the divine.

if people had less desire for sex there would be less starving humans

maybe, maybe not. it's hard to say

There is a chip that can temporarily cease reproductive capability.

It is in the MK subdivision of the societal response testing phase.

I want it to be brought ahead.

But alas, I am not in charge.